Mike Milligan, CFP (00:00)
Today we have a massive episode for you. We're sitting down with KC Chohan, founder of Together CFO and a brilliant tax expert for the ultra wealthy. Later in this episode, KC is going to peel back the curtain on how the top 1 % handle the biggest expense in their lives, taxes. Forget simple loopholes. We're talking advanced charitable structures where you quote, own nothing but control everything. Whether you're an entrepreneur scaling your business,

or a W2 employee feeling stuck in the rat race, KC drops absolute gold on how to protect your wealth and what a digital US dollar means for your future. Trust me, get your notepads out. You do not wanna skip this one. Let's dive in.

Welcome back to the ideas by Mike podcast. Got a very special treat for you guys today. KC Chohan is with us. He's the founder of together CFO of who he has a decade of spirit of experience being not only a fractional CFO, but really a tax expert to ultra high net worth people. So KC, welcome to the show today.

KC Chohan (01:05)
Thank you so much for having me. Pleasure to be on.

Mike Milligan, CFP (01:07)
It was, it was so good. mean, I, you know, we often, I've also tell people when they come on, ⁓ you know, the real, the real nuggets are found in the pre-show. Like when we're here, just like getting to know each other and talking about what we're going to do. We, ⁓ at about 10 or 12 minutes in this, we're going to get into a strategy that we talked about, about how you're helping people save a lot of money. And it's benefiting charities along the way too. But before we get there, let's talk about like, what makes you one of a kind? Tell us your background.

Tell us where you're from, and how you got to where you are today.

KC Chohan (01:42)
Yeah, as you can probably tell, I'm not from America. The accent is from England, Northeast of England, born and raised out there. I was working with a big fortune 500 company called flow service, big engineering company do pumps, seals and valves, about $4 billion in revenue. And I worked up the ranks. So I was working straight from making cups of tea and coffee for the bosses to having a region of myself.

And then I transferred from the European region over to North America region, did another four years here. So eight years in total for the company. So it was a total corporate guy knew how a big corporation of $4 billion monster works from the inside of the finances. Uh, and what made that really efficient and inefficient. I then got my green card left and started my own business together. CFO, where we specialized in fractional CFO services for smaller businesses.

helping them understand their financials, their everything from raising funds to optimizing their numbers. And we had a really big success with one of our first clients. helped them go from 5 million a year, 220 million a year. And that's what created a huge tax problem for him. And then he set us to work to save on that, which again was completely outside my comfort zone because I'd only been a W2 employee.

and then an entrepreneur and I didn't really know anything about taxes at that time.

Mike Milligan, CFP (03:12)
Well, we're going to come back and talk more about that initial first client story in a few minutes. ⁓ You know, we say that taxes are the biggest expense people are going to face in their life. And ⁓ it is just a truth that when people sit down and they realize it and they analyze it, ⁓ it makes people really uncomfortable.

in the financial space, the financial planning space, financial advisory space, investment management world, they quibble over like, should I use Vanguard or should I have a managed account? that, we're talking about the difference in like 1 % of fees, but we know, like as tax planners, that, you know, the real savings comes from taxes. but not the bigger strategy, what you're known for, what are some things that you know that entrepreneurs

in just individuals miss in the tax code that just seemed like, seemed like it, they're, they're everyday to us, but not so everyday to the common folks.

KC Chohan (04:17)
Yeah, I would split that into two sections. So on the first section, I would call that the, the loopholes that everybody should be using, but not many people are using, which is exactly what you started with. And then on the more advanced section, I would say structures over loopholes because loopholes can move the needle a little bit, but if you have the right structure in place, you can move the needle significantly. So it all depends on what your net worth is, how much you're actually making, whether you need.

a little movement, which makes a big deal for you. Or if you're a multi-seven, multi-eight figure business owner, you need a proper structure. So on the loophole side, it's simple things like hiring your kids. You should all be doing that. It's very simple. You can rent your house back to yourself for 14 days a year. The Augusta rule. You can use professionals like yourself to manage those funds and put them into self.

self-directed IRAs and retirement accounts and things of that nature. Use insurance. There's lots of different loophole level incentives. Again, the bigger ones would then be the depreciation schedules. It's changed now with the new, new establishment. you could bonus depreciate, accelerate, depreciate. You can get into real estate and do conservation easements. There's so many different things you can do at a loophole level that are very cheap or relatively free. And it's just an awareness issue.

And then for the top 1 % of people on the structure side of things, the more advanced side of things, you want to be making sure that you're set up in the right way with the entities holding companies separate. And then if you want to get really advanced, look at charitable structures as well, because you can save anywhere from 30 to 60 % if you get into those advanced savings.

Mike Milligan, CFP (06:10)
I, we didn't talk about this in the green room before we talk, but I'd love just to get like maybe your hot take on a couple of things before we go into how you're helping people today. Like you've been in the tax world in the United States for long now, you know, a long time, right? And we, we see that tax rates are at a discount. Maybe not the lowest they've ever been pretty close. Like what do you think taxes will be in 10 years, 20 years?

in the United States.

KC Chohan (06:41)
think they'll continue to keep growing. think the way that the government is structured with the massive amount of debt that can never be repaid and the way the economy is going, unless something drastic happens where like we've seen that start with Trump and the tariffs right now. And there's talk of the IRS being abolished and there's a whole, there's probably been the most unsettled it's ever been since inception right now, I would say.

But I think generally speaking, the government's biggest source of revenue is from the people. And the IRS is a cash collection machine for that, but it's never going to be able to collect enough to balance the books. Right. So if we look at the $38 trillion of debt right now versus the four or five that come in every year from the taxpayers, there's such a huge gap that regardless of if taxes were even at a hundred percent.

It would still never cover that gap. So it goes in line with a few different things. If we're getting like geopolitical and geoeconomic, the cash value of money, the dollar decline in printing as much currency as you want, pretty much over these last years, since the pandemic, there's been, I think over six, seven trillion dollars printed, the most ever in history in that space of time.

So that devalues the currency more and more as well. So I think there's going to be a huge shift in that mixed with crypto, whether that's whatever switch they make. We've seen it switch from gold back to not gold backed. think we're going to go from now military back, let's call it and government back to crypto backed. How they do that still again up in the air. But I think that there has to be a change.

in the way the currency is right now, because other countries globally can't handle the fact that we are just printing trillions of dollars with no backing. And you can see that by the central banks taking back their gold reserves and not buying US bonds.

Mike Milligan, CFP (08:52)
It's interesting, you know, that's when we went from gold back in 70, whatever, 1970, whatever, we're Nixon. It's interesting that you call it military backed because that's really what our dollar's been, you know, ⁓ backed by is that is they call it the good faith of our, of the U S government, but it's really that we have the strongest military in the world.

KC Chohan (09:14)
We're the biggest bully on the block, right? Right. But then when you put other bullies together, like China and Russia getting together, you then no longer become the biggest bully on the block. So I don't know how it all clips out.

Mike Milligan, CFP (09:27)
It's that whole playground mentality, When we take taking us all back to where five and six years old and the kid, the third grader is taking the kindergartners money, right? But now, now the kindergartners have gotten all together, right? The growing economy and they're like, wait a minute, maybe we shouldn't be using the dollar ⁓ as a reserve currency. Maybe we should be looking the other

KC Chohan (09:49)
Just

that with the BRICS nations getting together and building their own payment system and now the Chinese are bailing out all of the Africans and everything's going on to a digital one. So anyone who's looking at this from a global perspective can see that the writing's on the wall here.

Mike Milligan, CFP (10:05)
Yeah.

KC Chohan (10:05)
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Mike Milligan, CFP (10:16)
affect their retirement.

KC Chohan (10:35)
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Mike Milligan, CFP (10:35)
You're old, Marty and-

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retirement with taxes and

KC Chohan (10:50)
you

Mike Milligan, CFP (10:50)
You are you're you're very forward thinking in how you're you know, how you're answering the questions. I love that Do you do you see a time? where ⁓ Do you see a time coming up where? Bitcoin where some other currency is going to be accepted as payment for taxes in the United States

KC Chohan (11:13)
Yes, very, very soon. I think we'll see that really, really quickly. And it may not be Bitcoin to your point, but it will be some digital equivalent of, it'll probably be a US stable coin if I had to bet on anything. And that will be the new equivalent of the dollar. ⁓ And I think that will happen over the next three to four years if I had to put a timeframe on it.

Mike Milligan, CFP (11:39)
So this is a guys KC Chohan here is ⁓ again, he's built together CFO as a company over the last decade to be able to help a lot of entrepreneurs and business owners, ⁓ seven, eight, nine figure business owners, ⁓ not get out of the tax system, but pay their fair share because we know that ⁓ the IRS system is like he said, full of loopholes. And if you properly structure, you can get there.

I guess the one thing before we get into what you're doing for high ⁓ revenue producing business owners today, ⁓ go through a little bit about like if you are a W2 employee, like what type of structure you have or ⁓ what kind of things you could do in the tax system to lower your taxes versus

being an entrepreneur because you've been both. When you first came over to the United States, you were a W-2 employee. Now you own a business. So talk about the differences between being a W-2 employee and running your own outfit.

KC Chohan (12:47)
Yeah, it's so difficult as a W2 employee. are firmly in the rat race and you're so deep into it. It's hard to come up for air. The best piece of advice I could give a W2 is to start their own business and try and get out of that W2 because there's no real incentives or there's not much you can do from a tax optimization standpoint to reduce that down now.

At an AGI level, you can still do the structures that we'll talk about in a second, but it probably doesn't make much sense because of the income level. Generally speaking, there's only a handful of W2s that make seven figures, multi-seven figures, and they're going to be athletes. They're going to be high paid physician specialists or really high paid lawyers. There's not really many others, unless you're in tech and you're some like

guru at Google or Apple, that you may be in that bunch in that category. But generally speaking, the vast majority of W2s are going to be making like the average salary in America as well, $60,000, $70,000. Right. It's going to be in that region rather than the multi seven figures. So I would say the simplest, easiest thing that W2 could do is set up a private foundation and you can donate up to

30 % of your income into that private foundation. And then you can invest those funds in the name of the foundation tax free.

Mike Milligan, CFP (14:21)
All right. So now let's get into charity, charitable giving, charitable causes, and how charity plays an impact in the tax code. And so you have, you, talked about earlier, you found one of your first clients, you found a lot of structure and a lot of tax savings from that. Walk us through, ⁓ without giving names, of course, or details, just, just, just give us high level.

like how you found this client, ⁓ you know, the makeup of this client, and then walk us through the structure that you found to be able to save multiple, multiple ⁓ percentage points on the tax side.

KC Chohan (15:06)
Yeah. So to start off with, give enough context, the client was in the medical marketing space, making $5 million a year. Good business, good revenue. Everything was going fine. Then we bought the next vertical along, which was a lab that could process the, the marketing that he was doing. And then that was crazy because it went from 5 million in a year to 10 million a month. First month.

month one, because he bought the right type of business that already had the right certificates in place that could run X, Y, Z tests. And now you cashflow in ridiculous amounts of money that you can't even believe, right? So $10 million a month, which creates a huge tax burden. The way that we figured it all out was we got a lot of help from family offices. My background with FlowServe, the company I worked with, was head office in Dallas.

And, ⁓ we've got, I got connected with some family officers that had similar structures and, ⁓ long story short, after a lot of schmoozing and breadcrumbs given along the way, I pieced together that this is what they were all doing. And the long and the short of it is the tax code clearly lays this out. So if anybody wants to go read through 80,000 pages of dry tax code, it's all there on the website, ⁓ IRS.gov.

Away you go. But if you want the shortcut, I'm going to give you it right now. Generally speaking, they want you to do donations, right? And it can happen in different ways. You can donate cash. You can donate assets. You can donate different percentages of your AGI, depending on which threshold you meet. So the scenario that we'll use is that you can donate.

up to 50 % of your AGI any given year. If you are donating business shares, privately held business shares, this is not stocks of Apple or anything on the publicly listed stock exchange. This is, um, Mike Mill LLC number one, and we're donating, we were getting the evaluation of it. So you have to get, depending on, let's assume it's over $5,000, cause that's a threshold.

And then over $5,000, you have to get an independent valuation of to meet all of the IRS requirements. And then let's just say that valuation comes back at hundred thousand dollars. You can use that against your AGI. So if your AGI is $200,000 or more, let's just call it 200,000, just so easy math. You can donate up to a hundred thousand dollars of value into that.

charity. So a private ⁓ company into a public charity 501 C3. Again, they're all listed on the website and that's a donation deduction that you would take at the AGI level. questions?

Mike Milligan, CFP (18:16)
So like if we if you if you give your company a charity Okay, who maintains control of the company?

KC Chohan (18:24)
That's what we're getting to next. That's a great question. So if you use the right structure back to what we said earlier, right? It's all about structures. You could use a limited partnership as the entity type of partnership. And that means you have at least two partners. One is the limited partner that has no power, no control, the equivalent of a silent partner. And the other is the general partner, which does the day-to-day activities and controls the assets of that company. So you can be the general partner.

of that entity and a nonprofit could be the limited partner as a silent partner. So you can donate, let's say 99 % of that entity to a nonprofit and you could be a 1 % owner. So this is the difference between ownership and control. We've heard Rockefeller say it a million times, right? Own nothing, control everything. This is a way to do that. So at the ownership level, you would be 1 % owner.

A nonprofit would be 99 % owner, but at a control level, a day to day level, you would be general partner with a hundred percent control and the nonprofit would have zero control.

That's how we would.

Mike Milligan, CFP (19:36)
And

when we talk about control, just so we can lay this out, Control is budget, spending, assets, employees, it's everything.

KC Chohan (19:49)
You are literally the heartbeat of that company. Control the bank accounts, whatever, pretty much you say goes again, it's all written out in the operating agreement. So you got to make sure you have a really strong operating agreement. The T's and C's are all there, but generally speaking, you can give full power to the general partner to control that entity. But the voting rights would stay that in proportion to the ownership, but you don't have to have a vote on everything if the general partner is in control of day to day.

So it's again, you, there's been a lot of people that abuse these systems as well, because they don't understand the semantics of them. And it's really, really important to know that, Hey, you can't just donate an asset and not give control as well, because then the IRS will come knocking and they'll be like, well, you've kind of. Fakily done this donation just to benefit yourself. And that's not what we're doing. We're giving all the voting rights with that ownership, but

The general partner will decide when there is a vote or if there needs to be a vote. So again, really having good documentation and really understanding how that game is played to make sure you follow all of the requirements that again have been set out for us.

Mike Milligan, CFP (21:04)
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you

So I want to give our listeners kind of a real time planning scenario where two guys who understand the tax code pretty well are just going to play with the IRS tax code for a little bit in this scenario. And I want to throw out a scenario and see what you think about this. Let's say I'm a small business owner. I'm 65 years old and you know, I've

build a really good business, but I've got nobody in my family who wants this business. And it's a business that, you know, in the real world doesn't have a lot of valuation on the other side from a standpoint of buy and sell because maybe it's a common business. But let's say I've made, you know, I bring in revenue of a million dollars a year off of it. I've been fortunate enough to save a couple million dollars in a 401k.

as part of being in that business. Is there, and I don't have a lot of salary now in the business because I've done everything I could, S-Corp, you know, I've paid myself a little salary, but here I am coming to the end and I've got no buyer. Would that be a potential person who could work in this structure to get a benefit from ⁓ making a donation of your business to a public charity?

KC Chohan (23:17)
Yeah, all day long. So, firstly, in that scenario, we are seeing that more and more every day with the boomer generation that is retiring. It's probably the biggest influx of client avatar that we have is that, Hey, my kids don't want this business. I don't have any kids. What am I going to do? ⁓ I'm comfortable, but I don't know how am I going to live? You know, all of these question marks are around that. So yes, the beauty about it is if your AGI isn't that high, you

And the value of the company, like an accounting firm is 1.5 X of revenue. You usually are in that ballpark one to 1.5. It's not a lot of money. When you look at, Hey, I worked my whole life to build this business or I put X amount of years in it. And people are emotionally attached to that because it's their second baby. Right. ⁓ yes, that would be a great avatar to them. That's okay. Let's look at this business. Let's see how much cash is generated. Do we want to put option one?

Let's just run it as a cash cow. We'll bring in a management team that deals with the day to day. I can step back and kind of just enjoy the fruits of that. That could be one option, right? Then if I do want to just completely wash my hands of everything, I could sell it or donate it. Then yes, I could donate shares of that entity after I got it valued to a limited partnership. And that limited partnership can be owned by a nonprofit or whoever.

Um, but it's tax exempt. So it doesn't mind getting a K one at the end of the year. And that would be a great scenario, but again, it wouldn't really change too much. Of the day-to-day operations for that person. Right? So what we need to be really clear on is understanding, Hey, what are your goals? Are you wanting to time out in one year, five years? How much cash do you need to live comfortably? Is there any health conditions because

Again, all of those factors play in whether you need a special medical trust, whether you need certain things in place because you're not in good health or you are in good health. So you're not worried about them. Are you going to move to Puerto Rico? So it's going to be sunny and shiny and a medical is a lot less, right? There's lots of different factors. So I think the first thing that we always do is try and understand what the long-term plan is. If there is a long-term plan, if there isn't, we create one because

Ultimately, it's not really about us. We're going to give you options, but really it's about your vision and what you want to do with it. And we may not even be the right fit. I would say about 60, 70 % of the time we're turning clients away because we're not the right fit for what they want to do. We only serve a very, very specific section of the market, which is the top 1%. So for the other 99 % of people, we refer them out because we're like, we're not

a good fit for what we do, maybe do these 10 things first. And if it's still a problem, come back to us. And the amount of people that come back, I'm so surprised. And they're like, oh, you told us this a few years ago and now we're there. And I'm like, oh, wow. That's like, that's what's best for them, right?

Mike Milligan, CFP (26:28)
KC, I have two more things before we wrap up here. So first thing is, do you see a lot of scams out in the marketplace?

KC Chohan (26:37)
Yes, so many, there's, lots of them. And especially, especially with the things that we do with kind of the more advanced planning, people tend to push boundaries even more. Um, so I see all sorts of crazy stuff. And then on the side that we see it is normally that a person is just a business owner and they're like, Hey, I didn't know what was going on. I took my eye off the ball. I've got all this big mess.

or I've got this letters coming in and don't know what to do. What does it mean? And then we kind of try and decode in plain English what that means for the client. But yeah, there's a lot of crazy stuff out there and there always will be, there's always going to be people that push to the boundaries. And to one degree, you can see why when the IRS come out and say that taxes are voluntary system. And then on the other side,

There's no real black and white definitively on what can be included as a business expense versus not. let's use yachts and jets as that prime example as is that a business necessity? It depends, right? There's no, there's no real clear yes or no. So as long as you have all this ambiguity in the tax code, you're always going to see people push the needle ⁓ until it's cleared up.

Mike Milligan, CFP (28:04)
Have you heard ⁓ about the Roth conversion technique going around now where like you put your traditional money ⁓ in a self-directed account, you buy a business with it, you discount the business and then you convert the Roth and then you reverse engineer that back. Have you heard about that one going around?

KC Chohan (28:26)
No, I haven't heard about that, but that mechanism or part of that mechanism I've heard about with what we do with the charitable giving, they, they donate the shares to the company and then they devalue them and buy them back. the mechanism is semi similar. ⁓ again, if anyone's putting something out there, that's too good to be true. It probably is too good to be true.

Mike Milligan, CFP (28:49)
That's where we see this one. We've seen discounted valuations happen in family limited partnerships, right? For estate mechanisms, for even what you're saying for income tax mechanisms. But just as a warning for our listeners, ⁓ if you find yourself in one of these and ⁓ the IRS finds out about it two, three years from now, who's on the hook?

when the IRS comes, is it the person that showed you the strategy or is it you the individual?

KC Chohan (29:23)
Both. So firstly, you are responsible. You were the one that signs the form. You put your signature on it. Don't sign anything you don't understand. You're a hundred percent liable for that. ⁓ and then secondly, if the IRS wants to go after the promoter of that structure and they call it a shell or, know, some kind of scheme, then they, if they've got a big enough case, they usually separate force goes after that person. But

That's, know, by that point, you're so stressed out about your own wellbeing in terms of, Hey, what do I do? How do I undo this? How much penalties, how much fees, how much interest on top of all the fees that you paid to set it all up. Right. So it's, ⁓ it's something that you should really understand before you sign on any dotted line is, Hey, what is the structure? How is it operating? Have I read all of the documentation?

And again, who's going to read through 300 pages of small fine print in these 401ks and Roth IRAs. know I've blindly signed on stuff like that. You just assume it's all standard T's and C's, right? But ultimately you're on the hook for that. So you're going to make sure you understand what's going on.

Mike Milligan, CFP (30:35)
So KC, you're wicked smart. Obviously it comes through that you are. ⁓ What do you do in your spare time?

KC Chohan (30:42)
read. I read way too much. So random things. Again, I'm from England, so I've got an international outlook on life. I like to see what's going on all around the world, not just here in America or in Beverly Hills and my little bubble, but to see geopolitically what's going on and trends of what's going on, both in the markets for investing. And then also I invest in a lot of startups as well, and Angel Invest as well. ⁓ And I have a two-year-old, so he's been consuming.

a lot of my time. So that's the best way to spend all of my spare time. ⁓ so yeah, so keep it busy. I love traveling. love food, golfing. So all the fun stuff.

Mike Milligan, CFP (31:22)
That is great. do the ideas by Mike podcast is here to do to be educational in nature, but it is also here to connect people who see and have questions about, you know, maybe strategies they haven't thought about before. So if our listeners wanted to reach out to you to maybe see if, first of all, if they're part of this 1 % they're a business owner.

maybe even a high W2 earner making that million dollars, right? That doctor you talk about. ⁓ How can they reach into you to see if there's anything you have to help them lower their taxes?

KC Chohan (32:01)
Yeah, the easiest way you can set up a free consultation with our team. That's together. CFO.com is the website. You can set up a free call on there or any of the socials. If you want more information, got loads of YouTube videos out there that you can watch, learn, educate. We've got a private school community. It's completely free as well. that's school sk O L.com forward slash tax. And, again, just trying to offer education and options for people because

You don't know what you don't know, right? So you need a really good team around you to elevate you to that level and being proactive and anyone who wants to learn and get better and save more money on taxes. We're happy to give you more options.

Mike Milligan, CFP (32:45)
love it. ⁓ You know my saying is taxes are the biggest expense you'll ever have in your life. Do you have any sayings like that about taxes?

KC Chohan (32:53)
Yeah, I say it's not how much you make, it's how much you keep that's really important. So if we can help you keep an additional 50 % and then you can use someone like Mike to help make that 50 % grow in a tax efficient environment, you get to play with the wealthy then. And that's really the difference between being rich and being wealthy is when your money is making money. And if you can do it in a tax optimized environment and you compound wealth.

Mike Milligan, CFP (33:20)
Well, KC, that ⁓ was a great way to end. Thank you for being with us today. For ⁓ those who routinely listen, you know to like and share the podcast. ⁓ If you want more information about what we do at One Financial, go to OneOakFinancial.com. That's the number www.1oakfinancial.com. And most of all, you are one of a kind. And I just want you to believe that over and over again. And if... ⁓

And if you are truly unique and you know that, you deserve a one of a kind financial plan with partners like us at 1.oak and KC at Together CFO. So until next time, this has been Mike Milligan with Ideas by Mike Podcast.

Thank you for logging in and listening or watching to another episode of ideas by Mike. If you want to learn more about my firm, 1.oak Financial, please visit us on our website at www.oneoakfinancial.com. That's the number 1.oakfinancial.com. If you enjoyed this podcast, you could help me by liking it, subscribing to our channel and telling others about what we're doing. See you guys. We're looking to change the game.

And that game is about making financial planning more about you. Until next time, this has been Mike.

CFP board owns the remarks CFP, Certified Financial Planner and CFP in the United States. As a reminder, Mike Milligan, Certified Financial Planner is an Investment Advisor representative of Advisory Alpha LLC and SEC registered Investment Advisory firm. All opinions expressed by me or our guests are solely our own opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Advisory Alpha. This recording is for informational purposes only. It should not be relied on for investment,

tax or legal decisions. And it's in no way intended to communicate or guarantee specific performance or suitability of any security instrument or product as we may have discussed. Investment advisory and financial planning services offered through advisory alpha LLC, a registered investment advisor. Insurance is offered through ideas by Mike, a Virginia based LLC here to serve you in all 50 States in the District of Columbia. Ideas by Mike is a separate and unaffiliated entity of advisory alpha LLC.

While tax and legal issues may be discussed in the general course of financial and investment planning, Advisory Alpha does not provide tax or legal services. Please consult with your tax or legal professional prior to making a decision relative to those decisions. Any and all statements of purported or observed general practices of non-affiliated firms and advisors or conditions of the broad financial services industry are solely the opinions of like and are not intended to be offered as factual.

The validity of these statements has not been verified and as such, no representation of their validity are made. An annuity is a long-term financial product designed largely for asset accumulation and retirement needs. All guarantees are backed by the claims-paying ability of the issuing insurance company. This podcast is produced in conjunction with Mike Milligan, LLC. Thank you again for joining us today. We'll see you on the next podcast.